Eganmatrix Micro and wind controllers

Haken Audio Continuum
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I’m not sure if this is the right place but I’m hoping for some help guidance/advice.

Sound cuts out when Z pressure using CC11 is held at higher levels while playing new notes (legato or trills ). I’m using a NuRad wind controller. At lower CC11 levels it works fine with most patches. Not sure if it’s a bug or something I can rectify with a patch modification. I’m using a Faderfox EC4 to control macros, fx, eq mix etc. and it’s working great. I’ve made a lot of progress in the last week figuring out how to make this little box work for me. Beyond impressed with its sound capabilities.

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I’m not normally one to recommend anything on Facebook, but the various EaganMatrix related groups are quite good for this sort of question. (largely because Richard Kram lives there)

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Not sure what you are trying to do. CC11 is not a control for Z pressure on MPE channels. YOU must use channel pressure. Are you trying to play on channel 1? There are some issues taking EaganMatrix output of MPE mode in the editor. Can you set the NURAD to output channel pressure instead of CC11? Does it support MPE?

So the NURAD manual seems to suggest you can output channel pressure.
Controls wether or not breath data should be sent as Aftertouch (Channel
Pressure).
OFF - No Aftertouch breath data is sent (factory default)
ON - Breath data is sent as Aftertouch.

Set your preset to MPE. Set NURAD to output channel pressure instead of CC11 and set newRAD to play on channel 2 (assuming you are only playing monophonically - you can’t play polyphonically on MPE channels). Then also match you bend with the preset if you are outputting bend info - the default is 96 so I assume you may have to set your NURAD. The BURAD manual says it supports 1-20 which is strange. Try setting 24 on newRAD and 24 for the bend in the editor for the preset. If it outputs CC74 that should be fine. Again - remember only monophonic output on channel 2. Basically you are emulating a single voice MPE output here.

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I understand everything you’ve explained here. I’ve experimented a lot with my NuRAD setup. I want velocity and polyphony to both work and they do work on channel one. The NuRAD can send two notes at the same time, octave or an interval, 3rd, 5th, etc. It can also send chords and eventually I may use this feature.

I have tested it and it’s working well when I use channel 1. The NuRAD is not MPE. Software that would change standard midi into MPE would be cool, but I don’t think it exists.

In the third Control Panel (C3) I’m using 74 for Y and 11 for Z (corrected my text here I used X in my original post) and things are working quite well with my set up. I’ve experimented with many combinations MPE, MPE+ and all the options for Z CC messages, channel 1 and 2. The issue I described in my initial post is still a problem. I’ve tried all the combos in the midi IO including what’s in your comments to me.

The dropping notes that I describe at full pressure are still an issue that I’m working to resolve. Regardless, I can work around it and I’m getting some great results. At this point, I think of it like playing a real saxophone, you blow too hard and it’s a problem. In this case, I have to change notes while blowing hard, but it’s kind of the same thing.

I want to say the MICRO is blowing my mind. Understanding the software is not a trivial endeavor at all. But, I have to say I’ve never been this excited about anything I’ve connected to a wind controller.

You said, There are some issues taking EaganMatrix output of MPE mode in the editor. Could you give me more info or point me to a discussion that talks about this. I haven’t noticed any issues switching in and out of MPE.

Thank you so much for your feedback.

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That’s actually a simple right-click operation in Ableton Live, and is probably available in most MPE hosts.

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CC11 for X. Not sure what that means. There’s a bug where if you set a ContinuuMini out of MPE mode it does not output note data correctly. I have not really checked Micro operation out of MPE mode. CC11 for X? You mean Z? Try using channel pressure for Z instead in non MPE mode.

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I may be missing something, but I’m not a Ableton user. I think you are talking about a MPE capable software synth and midi mono mode (what it’s called in logic) it handles the standard MIDI. It’s part of the synths capability, but there is no midi out. I need the conversion without the synth part and the ability to sent it to the EM MICRO.

I found this, but nothing Mac or iOS.
MPE Emulator - A VST plugin for enhancing non-MPE MIDI streams with MPE capabilities based on user-defined mappings and rules, for Linux and Windows.

If you search for MIDI to MPE conversion, 99.9% of the results show MIDI to MP3. Apparently, a lot of people want to convert MIDI to an MP3.

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Sorry, I meant Z but typed X and didn’t catch my error. Thinking in XYZ is new for me :slight_smile: I corrected the error in my post.

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Testing 10.52 firmware.
First remember in channel1 mode Velocity will always give you your initial note on value and then CC11 should take over from there.

  1. On channel 1 playing from external source using CC11 I’m getting unexpected initial gating.
  2. The max value of Z when played (I tested on Continuum too) on the surface only gets to 126, not 127. Not sure but max Z value played may be 126 too when playing Micro over channel1.
    So I think this needs to be looked at. Something unexpected is happening.

But I’m playing through the editor so this may also be editor related.

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By the way, it’s not clear if channel 1 mode was intended for input when taken out of MPE. You should also try leaving things set to MPE and use channel pressure for Z and play on channel 1. Once again velocity will be active. But maybe only velocity will be active here. I need to fine out if channel 1 mode was intended to be used as you are using it. Would be interesting for you to just play monophonically and set channel pressure and use channel 2 and see if that works better.

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There is nothing special about MPE. It just uses one voice per channel (if you try and play polyphonically on any channel you will get note drop outs and other issues). In MPE mode, the Micro will ignore velocity. It will only use channel pressure for Z. So if you use channel pressure for Z, you match pitch bend to your max, you use CC74 and you play monophonically on one channel (say channel 2) - you are playing MPE (well there are a couple technical things but from the performance perspective Micro should be fine)! So that’s why you should test playing on channel 2 with channel pressure for Z to see if you get better pressure response as a test.

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I’m getting the initial note value and CC11 does take over as you described. I’m getting the gating issue while playing through the editor and also when playing directly to the Micro. I’ve tried channel 1 with MPE and channel pressure. I’ve also tried the channel 2 setup as you described. It doesn’t work well. The way I have it setup, channel 1, Y74 and Z11 is working extremely well, how it responds to my Wind Controller is fantastic. The expressivity is the best I’ve ever experienced with a synth. Swam software is also excellent but the limited note range is frustrating. The note gating issue varies from preset to preset. All of the presets I’ve tried have the issue. It depends on the preset, some work reasonably well, others have extreme gating issues at lower levels of pressure. I fully understand that what I’m trying is pushing the envelope and I read the disclaimer. “The EaganMatrix Micro is being sold specifically for use with the Warbl” But, I decided to take a chance on making it work for me and I’m really glad I did.

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Well good that is somewhat working. Channel 1 mode was really intended for when you have MPE set, but you want to play standard Midi instead - as channel1 is never used my MPE for notes. Still I’m finding out what they think is expected operation on channel1 when setting Z=CC11 in the editor instead of MPE or MPE+. The Micro in reality has nothing specifically to do with WARBL other than it comes with 16 presets specifically designed for WARBL (and was marketed that way). Other than that, it’s just a ContinuuMini without the fingerboard as they run the same firmware. I’ll find out if some of this is expected or not.

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After looking at the warble presets I was guessing exactly what you just said and you have confirmed it for me. A ContinuuMini without the fingerboard.

I watch the “Haken ContinuuMini & EaganMatrix: Playing as an External Sound Engine” (a six year old video) and noted it says that standard midi devices should use MPE+ for Y&Z on channel 1 and that the mini will not process channel 1 input correctly when CC values are used. I hooked up my NuRAD and didn’t get exactly what I hoped for. So I just started experimenting with every combo I could imagine. I figured things might be different after so many updates of the firmware and the release of the Osmose. The gating issue is consistent with all the combinations I tried. The NuRAD has a lot of latitude in its midi configuration set up. Thanks again for all your help and expertise.

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Just wanted to give some additional information.

After further testing, I’m not hearing any difference between Ch1 & Ch2 with channel pressure or CC11 it’s working as described before.

Channel 2 in MPE+ and MPE I can’t play legato or trills if any pressure at all is being sent at the same time. If I tongue each note individually or stop all pressure/air between notes it play sound. But it’s unusable.

Ch1 MPE+: allows me to play multiple notes at the same time, but no Z pressure. Using the initial velocity level feels like I’m playing a standard midi keyboard :confused:. I can see it working well if I route some dynamics using Y and use my byte sensor when I become more familiar with the software and adjusting presets. So that’s good news, but breath pressure is what makes the EM Micro sing. The byte sensor is what I’ve been using for Y and works well.

Staying in one channel on the wind controller is preferred, so that’s looking good too.

If ch1 MPE+ allowed pressure dynamics after starting the note(s) it would be off the charts awesome.

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Ch1 can never be MPE. MPE uses channels 2-16. If playing on channel 2, play monophonically and set to use channel pressure. Velocity is not used at all. Some presets will engage an attack profile on Z if you induce the channel pressure fast enough. IN editor just make sure Z is set to MPE. Your wind controller will not be able to provide CC87 for extra resolution. You should have no issues playing legato on channel 2 if using channel pressure if you can bend to the next note, etc. Note on - channel pressure for dynamic volume and then bend applied. You will just have to experiment.

Also because if set MPE and playing on channel 2, velocity is not used, you can get a nice legato by using channel pressure to put dynamic trails on your notes. But you must get rid of CC11 and use channel pressure. Note on with very low channel pressure applied should come in very soft and you can then blow harder to increase that volume and that’s how you can get nice legato without initial gating effects.

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actually thats not strictly true for mpe spec…
(but I assume you mean for the EM)

but generally…

ch1 would be the manager channel (aka global) channel, CC/pitchbend are considered to affect all member (aka voice) channels. usually you’d also expect notes to be respected - ofc, not allow per note expression, though poly pressure could be respected.

ch 2-n (members channels), can also be polyphonic notes, but ofc , cc74/channel pressure would be expected to affect all of them.

mpe does also support velocity, in both manager and member channels.

the idea being to allow a lot of compatibility with traditional non-mpe.

the ‘issue’ being, frankly, implementations of mpe are hugely variable, and often simplistic.

ofc, on its still up to the synth engine to decide what it wants to use e.g. some synths dont respond to various CC or I guess velocity.

one of the things about the Eagan Matrix is the patches are setup to expect a certain set of messages, in particular timbre/pressure/pb is expected per note.
also Id assume that the note-on/off will need to be co-ordinated with the pressure messages which may be whats tripping you up (if pressure is global/breath)

perhaps we take a step back…

@rnrMIDI what are you trying to achieve?
does the NuRad support per note expression? if so how?
are you just trying to use CC 11 as a global ‘gain’ control?

its often easier to state what you are trying to achieve, what possible with your controller… e.g. what messages is it sending, which expressions are per note, which are not.
then perhaps we can find a way for it to work?

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Sorry. Yes, I am talking about the Haken Audio/EaganMatrix DSP implementation of MPE/MPE+.

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I think there’s a mismatch between what I’m saying and how it may be read/perceived. When I’m describing the channel 1 or 2 I am stating what channel the NuRad is using, it’s standard MIDI. For all of the comments about MPE, MPE+, CC11 etc. I am simply describing my selection in the EM software. I’m not stating what it is or isn’t, just describing my settings. I understand the MPE channel 2 - 16 thing and I read that EM uses Ch15 & Ch16 for communication. I played with these settings on my Roli Seaboard M and set it for Ch2 - Ch6. So I’m somewhat familiar.

The NuRAD also has the ability to play Chords, Gate Hold, Sub Octave Double, Auto harmonizers/rotators and my favorite Slur Sustain. Polyphony is of interest, but not a priority for me.

Ch1 MPE+ is working, but using a wind controller polyphonically is complex within itself. As I said before, I can’t change the pressure after the notes are started. However, in it’s current state it’s somewhat usable. I don’t know if it’s velocity which is also sent from my NuRAD or if pressure is used to set velocity and I’m not sure if it matters, I’m just describing the results.

I’m not perceiving any difference when using Ch1 or Ch2 for monophonic playing. I’m getting the exact same results while playing using channel pressure and CC11. To clarify further in the pop-up in the software C3 controls for Midi I/O. There is “Z channel pressure” this works. When I’ve referenced MPE+ and MPE, I’m talking about the bottom two selections. “MPE (Z is Channel Pressure)”

I’ve been obsessed working on this and I’m still extremely pleased with what I can do with its current firmware. I think I’ve gone as far as I can when it comes to controlling it with my NuRAD. I’m going to focus on which presets to use now. I’ve already found many presets that work perfectly with my wind controller. If I can resolve the sound cutting out issue I initially described in this post, I’d be completely satisfied with the Micro. I’ve never been this excited to perform with and play my NuRAD. I’ve been using wind controllers since they first came out. I’ve never been completely happy with the expressiveness or sounds using synths, until using Swam software, but the note range limit is a big problem and it’s different for every instrument sound. I’m into sax, trumpet, etc. and they are nice to have but play a very small part in what I’ve been trying to achieve musically with the wind controller. The EM is off the charts when it comes to the sounds it can produce. All the feedback here has been extremely helpful in figuring things out.

Here is what I discovered last night with a lot of testing.
Midi IN on the Micro appears to be quite robust Ch1 & Ch2.
I can only guess in how the editor works and interacts in some ways with the Micro. When I connect midi directly it plays the same way.

I monitored the Micro midi output and I’m only guessing here. If I see the midi coming out, it’s utilizing what I’m sending. If I’m correct, High res breath data is working. When I use it alone, I think I might be hearing a difference, but it’s hard to tell. Another assumption is that the EM is really good at smoothing course information. Any information regarding this would be great.

With breath the NuRAD can send two CCs, one from this list and any CC1-127.
Aftertouch and Velocity are also available.

The Hi-Res options do not work, as I expected. With exception to breath BR+
For reference from the UI of the NuRAD for breath
MW – Breath data is sent as CC#1 (Mod Wheel)
BR – Breath data is sent as CC#2 (Breath, factory default)
VL – Breath data is sent as CC#7 (Volume)
EX – Breath data is sent as CC#11 (Expression)
MW+ – High res breath data is sent on CC#1 and CC#33 (Hi-res Mod Wheel)*
BR+ – High resolution breath data is sent on CC#2 and CC#34 (Hi-res Breath)*
VL+ – High resolution breath data is sent on CC#7 and CC#39 (Hi-res Volume)*
EX+ – High res breath data is sent on CC#11 and CC#43 (Hi-res Expression)*
CF – Breath data is sent as CC#74 (Filter Cutoff)
AT - Aftertouch (Channel Pressure)

It doesn’t seem to matter for some of the CCs what the EM I/O Z is set to: CC2, CC11, Off or Channel Pressure. Not a concern on my part, just an observation.

The following results exclude MPE+ and MPE.
In the midi out results below I’ve removed
“23:06:02.621 From EaganMatrix Micro 018781”
from each line of midi out.

BR+ and AT work great together I could filter out Channel pressure if needed for Hi res only.
Channel Pressure 1 92
Control 1 Breath Control (fine) 31
Control 1 Breath Control (coarse) 85
Channel Pressure 1 85
Control 1 Breath Control (fine) 56
Control 1 Breath Control (coarse) 78

EX and EX+ both produce Corse only expression as expected
Control 1 Expression (coarse) 118
Control 1 Expression (coarse) 119
Control 1 Expression (coarse) 120

BR+ Looks good
Control 1 Breath Control (coarse) 18
Control 1 Breath Control (fine) 119
Control 1 Breath Control (fine) 57
Control 1 Breath Control (fine) 119
Control 1 Breath Control (coarse) 19
Control 1 Breath Control (fine) 22

BR
Control 1 Breath Control (coarse) 95
Control 1 Breath Control (coarse) 96
Control 1 Breath Control (coarse) 97

AT (Channel Pressure)
Channel Pressure 1 123
Channel Pressure 1 124
Channel Pressure 1 125

CC1 EM Midi IO setting for Z didn’t appear to matter
Control 1 Modulation Wheel (coarse) 28
Control 1 Modulation Wheel (coarse) 37
Control 1 Modulation Wheel (coarse) 45

CC2 EM Midi IO setting for Z didn’t appear to matter
Control 1 Breath Control (coarse) 115
Control 1 Breath Control (coarse) 116
Control 1 Breath Control (coarse) 117

CC3 EM Midi IO setting for Z didn’t appear to matter
Control 1 Controller 3 107
Control 1 Controller 3 108
Control 1 Controller 3 110

CC4 EM Midi IO Z must be set to CC4
Control 1 Foot Control (coarse) 116
Control 1 Foot Control (coarse) 115
Control 1 Brightness 17 ???

CC7 CC4 EM Midi IO Z must be set to CC7
Control 1 Channel Volume (coarse) 121
Control 1 Channel Volume (coarse) 120
Control 1 Channel Volume (coarse) 119

CC11 EM Midi IO setting for Z didn’t appear to matter
Control 1 Expression (coarse) 109
Control 1 Expression (coarse) 108
Control 1 Expression (coarse) 107

Control 1 Brightness 18
This shows up often dependent on the CC in used, not sure what it is, possibly part of a preset?