Roli /Ableton Move speculations - 8/10/24

First post here… I just bought a Block M, my first-ever Roli product, and I love it. As for this, I’m intrigued too, but I’m surprised by the emerging consensus here that this would be like a piano. I think the exact opposite: Roli is consolidating all of its previous offerings into a piano category, so this should be something entirely different. What I see from the reactions is that it’s pretty, sleek, and incredibly puzzling, so I don’t think it will look like any instrument we know. They mention a dialog, music “talking back,” and also blurring the lines between making music and learning music and “interacting with” music, which is weird: how do you “interact” with music apart from making it and listening to it? I suspect it should have a color visualization aspect (building on the Lumi, but much more sophisticated, informative, and expressive). I really do hope it’s not another one of those “sing into this box and it will turn it into MIDI” kind of products: even if they innovate in that field, it’s hardly a breakthrough they can claim as theirs.

I was wondering about Space Odyssey, and I can think of three possible things from that movie that could apply: (1) general retro-futuristic high-tech design, like the spaceships; (2) the trippy visuals near the end of the movie; and (3) the monolith. And I’m pretty sure it will be the monolith. Think about it: if it does end up looking like the iconic featureless monolith from the movie (which is a common form factor in tech these days, thanks mostly to Apple, although it would indeed be unusual in a music instrument) there’s no way they’d ever reveal it prematurely in the video, so they can never say “monolith” in it, so “Space Odyssey” would probably be the closest hint they’d allow. Maybe combine it with (2), and have the monolith visualize music in a new clever way, while also exposing an interaction interface? My guess would be something like that. Music is represented in a novel visual way, and the interaction wouldn’t only be touch-based, but maybe somewhat Theremin-like, as suggested by this patent filing from last year (which would correspond to their mention of a breakthrough “last year”): GB202308689D0 - Musical instrument player hand-tracking - Google Patents I’m not sure I’m reading the patent application right, but the various classifications make it look like it’s about using cameras and other methods to track the user’s hand in a musical instrument, so there’s that. Anyway, I’m really curious, and looking forward to the reveal!

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Ahah I’ll put that scrolling on the Linnstrument :wink:

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[EDIT] sorry that I missed that others got both the name and the patent before me… I guess I was too excited.

I think Airwave will be an “air piano” with other “air instruments” and interaction modes: it will basically be an iPad the size of a Seaboard, with keys and other widgets drawn on the screen, and you interacting with them via hand gestures which it would capture via cameras.

So much for my previous remark about this “not being a piano”: now I think it will be!

I can even imagine it being used for effects, i.e. taking audio input, visualizing it on the fly, and allowing the user to interact with the visualization in ways heretofore unimaginable… :slight_smile: Same for creating new music, basically making you a conductor of technology (which sounds like a dumb slogan, but you know what I mean: you wave your hands, and it’s not an orchestra that reacts but an array of plug-ins and patches and effects and whatnot, or maybe some entirely new construct they came up with). Or maybe you’ll just be a glorified theremin player… which I’d bet money some will dissmis this new product as if it’s anything like I imagine.

In any case, I’m almost certain that this is what the invention is about: hand gestures in the air to manipulate a novel representation of sound. Roli seems to be sure that they really hit the jackpot with this, and I can’t imagine that a company with Roli’s track record could be so off about whether a new interaction model “just clicks” or it doesn’t. I mean, if they had bad judgment about that stuff, I wouldn’t be playing my BLOCK M with a wide smile, making music I never thought possible before, with the sound even inspiring the best melodies I’ve ever come up with. So, while I’m sure there are infinite ways to make a hand-gesture interface awkward or difficult, if there is a bunch of ways it can work properly, I trust Roli to have figured it out. Having said that, I find it hard to imagine a hand-gesture interface that could allow you to play notes at properly quantized pitches, or multiple notes… unless the design includes a virtual piano, which I guess would still only be “five-dimensional” since we’ve pretty much run out of physical dimensions with the Seaboard, didn’t we?

My suspicion is that “piano mode” will be the lame, boring mode, and the interesting stuff will start happening when you utilize other modes, like mime guitar, mime harp, mime violin, and so on. If so, this will be basically GarageBand for iPad on a larger iPad you don’t touch, which would disappoint me: while it could still be useful, it wouldn’t come anywhere close to living up to the hype. (For those who don’t know what I’m talking about: GarageBand is the free music-making app Apple bundles with every computing device it sells (iPhones, iPads, Macs), and the iPad/iPhone versions are particularly cool because they let you play on-screen instruments such as drums or drum pads or even guitars and cellos, etc. via direct manipulation, i.e. holding and picking strings, tapping drums, etc.) So I definitely hope this will be a bit more than that, and I also hope it will have a couple of killer features beyond an air piano (unless it somehow improves greatly on the Seaboard experience) and a couple of other air instruments, unless they are really, really, really, and I mean really well-done.

I can imagine two sizes: the Airwave RISE, for about $2500 or so, and maybe later the Airwave BLOCK, for around $1000. I don’t think it will be cheaper than that. But I hope I’m wrong: no way I’d justify getting even the cheap one at that price. (Yeah, halve 'em! I was kidding.)

It’ll be fun to come back here and laugh at how way off I was… :rofl: :rofl:

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Very specific, these guesses :wink: Lets see what they come up with…

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That’s my hobby: overly-detailed, last-minute, niche, public tech predictions. If I’m wrong, my words will haunt me forever. If I’m right, nobody will know apart from half a dozen geeks. :rofl: I’ve done it with Apple products so far, and I’ve had my moments (some of my early iPhone predictions kinda panned out), but I’m fairly confident that I’m on to something here. Five days to go!

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welcome to polyexpression :slight_smile:

lots of interesting ideas!
I do wonder how innovative/revolutionary Roli will be…
generally, they have wanted to hit mass market appeal, and given recent history, Im not sure they can afford to be too outlandish.

also hand tracking is not really new…
obviously Theremin, but then Leap Motion tried it, and it didn’t really go the far.

personally, I also think if devs want to go this route, I think using AR would be the route - Meta have just released the Quest 3s at $299. this would not only give free hand motion , but also haptic feedback via controllers plus visual system.

(I will say, haptic feedback is an area I think is ripe for exploration !)

hmm, make me wonder…
perhaps Roli will NOT release a hardware product, perhaps they will release a software product for the Meta Quest (2/3/3s) ?
given their financials, this could be ‘revolutionary’ but on a much smaller budget.
(also you can fill you boots with adjectives and hyperbole in VR/XR)

that said, their tease would have been majorly misleading, no VR headset in sight… people looking at ‘something’, but perhaps using ‘artistic license’ :wink:

as for piano vs other surface.
could be either, things like the Erae Touch have a piano ‘emulation’.
also there is an AR application on quest, that allows you to have a guitar hero like mode on a real piano.

so… could be anything.

k, so thats my outside bet…
its an AR app for Meta Quest.- you heard it here first :laughing:

(ofc, could be cross platform XR/AR incl Apple Vision Pro, but thats a tiny market)


meta quest : piano vision app

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Interesting! I don’t know much about their finances, though. I’m pretty sure it will be a hardware product, and probably expensive too (Roli never really sold cheap stuff.) I imagine it will have a lot of associated software/service components too, so if they’re smart, they want to charge a big chunk of money for the HW, maybe some more for the SW, and they probably want to push some online service with a paid subscription too. Hey, it’s been done before: a niche company with good products but bad finances digging its way out of a hole by inventing and selling outrageously expensive stuff that people still find compelling enough to buy (Apple as an obvious example comes to mind, going from near bankruptcy to a 3-trillion-dollar company in a couple of decades). Maybe this is a “bet the farm” kind of thing, and I don’t know Roli enough to tell how much of the hype they actually believe, but I hope they do most of it.

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If you had the original Lightpad Block, I assure you, you wouldn’t be playing it with a wide smile.

And if you had participated in the Lumi Kickstarter, you wouldn’t question how bad their judgement can be.

But some of their products are very good. Roughly half, I’d say.

(I was one of their earliest adopters, and used to be their most ardent supporter. It takes a concerted effort to reverse that kind of customer loyalty. And yet, here we are…)

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To be fair, every time I followed a crowdfunding campaign, no matter how big or well-established the creator (including names like Philips), I was shocked by their apparent unprofessionalism and incompetence. There’s a reason why product development is done behind the scenes: it’s ugly, involves a lot of false starts and reversed decisions, and tends to make everyone involved look bad.

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When it comes to money, ROLI are in a different universe, a silly world of extreme venture capital, more like how a startup tech company with ‘to the moon’ growth predictions operates in its early years than how typical electronic instrument makers operate. The original ROLI company raised a stupid amount of money, and burnt a stupid amount of money, and died with a stupid amount of debt. Im talking about many, many tens of millions of pounds. And most of those numbers had no sensible relationship to how much revenue they actually got from selling their products. As far as I can tell they got absolutely nowhere close to actual profitability, to having healthy margins, to properly covering their costs.

I didnt like that side of things at all. I have a bunch of ROLI products that I like, although I wasnt impressed with various decisions they made, the evolution of software and firmware, etc.

Anyway this history means I am unwilling to make predictions about how swanky they will make the new product, and I certainly cannot predict that there is no chance of them being outlandish and going out on a limb this time. Roland Lamb still moves in the surreal world of venture capital, although his wings have probably been clipped slightly by the fact that the new legal entity did inherit a great big chunk of VC debt from the original company, and the fact that his reputation was damaged by the original failure. All the same, chances are he is likely still playing a high stakes game, still finding new investors, still gambling on some absurd level of corporate success that seems at odds with how much potential there really is in this market. This is why they have to go heavy on the hype, because to make their numbers add up and ever stand the slightest chance of giving investors a decent return on their investment, they probably do need to create something that has mega mass market consumer appeal, that could actually allow them to have the number of customers that tech startups aspire to.

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new link found…

https://roli.com/eu/product/airwave-learn

source: https://www.elektronauts.com/t/roli-airwave/220946

they also say “Camera plus AI based modern theremin”, don’t know where this comes from.

links goes back to @Alex earlier post, who mentioned the airwave trademark.

note: google has tracked the above link.

so seems new product is going to be called airwave, and its part of the educational side, so descent to lumi.
e.g. piano-m (aka lumi) - https://roli.com/eu/product/piano-m-learn

whereas rise etc, are simply
https://roli.com/eu/product/seaboard-m

there is also a new Facebook tease


this could be just a piece of software… using your phone camera/webcam.
quite a few devs have been working on hand tracking (incl for xR) including meta.

so could be a just a bit of music software with some hand waving.
but hey, perhaps, they have made it enjoyable/useable this time around.

I guess the promising side is, unlike other attempts, it comes from a music tech company.
also the ‘learn’ link is interesting… as, I think that implies playing pieces/songs, presumably easier than the theremin.
(I wonder if hand tracking is accurate enough for theremin gestures?!)

ofc, no doubt, like everything these days, it’ll have an AI tagline :wink:

(still think it would be better if this was in AR … but I guess, that means I should buy a Quest and do it myself :laughing: )

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This is the right time, with the 3S finally bringing color pass-through down in price.

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At least, they’re ready to sell it…

Their patent also covers hardware. I’d be surprised if it were software-only.

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Some good finds! Absolutely, most definitely, undoubtedly a hardware device, though. They want headlines; software doesn’t tend to get headlines.

The message is pretty clear: this won’t just be an electronic piano, it will be an electric everything, i.e. multi-instrument. But I hope it will be more than an oversized iPad running GarageBand.

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Leaked Ableton Move pic… looks very ROLIesque! :slight_smile:

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In as much as the BLOCK line (which I think is now the M line) is mostly black rectangles, this is indeed a black rectangle.

But if you go any more specific, it doesn’t look anything like the Lightpad M, or Lumi, or the Seaboard.

Not in form, not in functionality.

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to give some context… this is from ‘store’ leaks.
apparently, there were a few, elektronauts gave this source, some were saying it appear on multiple others, before (like this one) being taken down.

edit: ableton subreddit is also full of this speculation, and others… its likely where Elektronauts got it from.

as for Roli/Ableton collab, pretty sure thats not the case.
on Instagram, even Roli said - “perhaps its just coincidence :man_shrugging:


to me, looks kind of strange for an Ableton product…
pads are old push 2 style, not push3.
push always has had square buttons,
button /encoder placement is inconsistent w/ push e.g. scene/track buttons

and that display… just feels too small to be useful.

finally, IF those pads are push2 size… its still too big/wide…
at those dimensions and screen limitations, Id just go push 2/3.

if I were going small/mobile, id have either gone for small pads or a 4x4 grid (*)
basically shrink in all dimension - and still had the screen as large as possible for that form factor…

(*) fingers drummers would prefer large pads, melodic player more small pads (imo)

anyway, … I kind of hope this is fake, a photoshop ‘dream’ someone has put together.

but you never know, it its a portable/budget standalone push (perhaps based around note), that many are hoping for… then to get within ‘budget’, many compromises would have to be made.

oh, well only a couple of days, till we know.

mod note: renaming topic, as it keeps moving between move/roli speculation :wink:
on 8th, once we have details we can have specific topics.

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midjourney often borrows from multiple products in its ‘designs’ :wink:

also… we now have links on both Ableton and Roli, referring to Move and Airwave (respectively).

how do these connect? what in the above, does this have to do with airwave?
… and even with Roli’s marketing, I think its a struggle to call this design something that will ‘change music forever’.

but never say never…

its fun to speculate, I think often it shows as much about what we are dreaming of…

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Yeah I dont mind speculation, although I cannot help but think the new Ableton device doesnt belong in this thread at all. Im not even convinced it will have the sort of expression that would make it of interest to this messageboard.

All product design involves compromise, but it might be that the Ableton Move is the sort of device that has many people scratching their heads when they hear all the details. If that does turn out to be the case, it might be one of those devices that starts to make more sense when people actually get to play with the workflow it features for themselves, or watch other people do so in far more depth. There will probably still be a lot of ‘if only it had xxx but it doesnt so I dont think its for me’ type sentiments expressed, and if it does indeed lack MPE like I suspect, then I will be joining in with that.

Im not sure that I expect the Roli to feature the sort of expressivity I’ve become fond of from other controllers either, and hands in the air stuff is usually fatiguing for me pretty quickly. But there is more scope for it to feature aspects that I havent correctly imagined at this stage, and maybe they have been clever in several respects that will make me happy.

In any case I am keeping my expectations for both products quite low, Im still excited to learn so much more on Tuesday but Im ready to be underwhelmed or have mixed feelings.

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